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MR. IGNATIUS: Welcome to Washington Post Live. I’m David Ignatius, a columnist for The Post. Today’s guest is a real-life American hero, retired Navy Admiral William McRaven who, ten years ago next month led the raid on Abbottabad that killed Osama bin Laden.

Today, Admiral McRaven is a bestselling author. He has a new book called, "The Hero Code: Lessons Learned from Lives Well-Lived," that's about everyday heroes in hospitals, schools all over our country. I want to welcome Admiral McRaven to Washington Post Live.

Good to have you, sir.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Great to be here with you, David.

MR. IGNATIUS: Let's start with your book, "The Hero Code," and maybe the first question is to explain what that code is, what you mean by it, and how you walk the reader through it. I've got a copy of the book, here, but maybe you'll give us a verbal introduction.

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ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, thanks. You know, the Hero Code, as I point out early in the book, you know, it's not a puzzle, it's not a cypher. It really is a moral code or a code of conduct, if you will. As I was writing it, of course, I was thinking about the military code of conduct. But I also realize that we have kind of had this code in our DNA since the beginning of mankind. It is what started the great migration out of Africa. It is what has led explorers to cross the seas, researchers to do the great work they do. It is these noble qualities--when we think of a hero, the textbook definition is people we admire for their noble qualities. And I love that definition, because I think it accurately portrays what we're looking for. We're looking for, you know, the courage and the humility and the sense of sacrifice and the perseverance. This is what we admire in people.

So, the code is really about the qualities, the traits, the virtues of being a hero from these remarkable heroes that I have encountered in my life.

MR. IGNATIUS: Give us an example of a favorite everyday hero of yours, as you describe in the book or just out of your own experience.

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ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, you know, there were so many to choose from. Frankly, the hardest part about writing the book was trying to identify, you know, the heroes that match the virtues in there.

But the first one I talk about in the first chapter in the book is on courage. And there's a quote from Winston Churchill that says something to the effect that the greatest or the first of human qualities is courage because it guarantees all the rest.

And the first story is about Lieutenant Ashley White, Ashley--a great soldier who was part of our cultural support teams in Afghanistan. When we were doing missions and our special operations forces were going on the compounds every night, it was cultural inappropriate for men--either Afghan men or American men to be, you know, touching women, handling them, moving them around. So, we needed to find some great female soldiers that were, you know, physically tough and mentally tough that could go out with the Rangers and SEALs, and Ashley White was one of the first people to sign up to be part of this cultural support team.

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And the reason I talk about her courage is she--you know, she got on the helicopters every single night--every single night to go out on these missions. And I'm telling you, you know, when you are in a combat zone, you're scared most of the time, and anybody that says they're not is probably not telling you the whole story. But you take that fear and you bury it down deep inside of you and you cover it with ever barricade you can because you know you have to do your job. And let me tell you, that takes courage, and Ashley White did it every single day. She did her job and she went out with her fellow soldiers, and she eventually gave her life for those fellow soldiers in Afghanistan when she stepped on a pressure plate mine that killed her and two Rangers.

But the story of courage is more than about one great, shining moment. It's also about the courage, as you said, David, of the kind of average, if you will, people that you meet in the course of the day: the parents that are taking care of their kids, the coaches that are teaching the young athletes, the cops that are on the streets doing their job. I mean, these are just as courageous, just as great qualities, just as heroic as some of the great heroes we think of in our lives.

MR. IGNATIUS: Well, we've all lived through a difficult year, not the conditions of combat, but for many of our viewers, it's been a tough year. I've read and enjoyed this book and I'm sure people were finding it a lot to take comfort, take heart from.

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Admiral McRaven, I want to turn to some of the issues in the news, and start with Afghanistan. The president today will make a speech shortly in which he'll formally announce what was put out to the press yesterday, which is that he is going to get the U.S. troops out of Afghanistan by September 11, the 2,500 remaining U.S. troops.

I want to ask you, when you heard that news yesterday or whenever you heard the first account of it, what your own feelings were as somebody who's been so deeply involved in that war.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, my first question to myself was, you know, how much consultation has the president done with the military leaders. And frankly, I reached out to some very close associates of mine and I was pleased to see that the president has been kind of in constant engagement with General Scott Miller, who was the ISAF Commander in Afghanistan; General Frank McKenzie, who was the CENTCOM Commander; obviously, Chairman Mike Milley and Secretary Austin, all who have extensive experience in Afghanistan. And they have an opportunity to make their case to the administration.

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And I think what the administration--you know, they came to the assessment that, look, we're not going to have a military victory in Afghanistan, and so maybe we can have a political one. And so, from the military standpoint, as long as you have an opportunity to have your opinions heard, as long as you have an opportunity to make your case then, at the end of the day, you know, we work for the civilian leaders. And we're a professional military, so our job is to do what the civilian leaders ask us to do. And so, I was very reassured that the military had a great opportunity to engage with the president and have their voices heard. And then, the president makes a decision and we move out smartly and carry out that decision.

MR. IGNATIUS: One of the values that you cite in your book, The Hero Code, is perseverance. Perseverance in war is, obviously, essential. We've been persevering in Afghanistan for 20 years. In your own mind, do you think the time has come to end this war, or would you have leaned toward keeping a smaller residual force a while longer to try to protect our interests, protect stability, there.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, you know, and I think as I mentioned, David, I'm sure the military commanders have an opportunity to discuss this with the president.

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And my expectation, while I don't know this for a fact, is that we will have, you know, capabilities in place, and whether they are overhead surveillance with drones; we may have a combat air patrol coming off an aircraft carrier in the Gulf, you know, we'll still be able to, I think, provide military support in some fashion to the Afghan national security forces were they to need it after we leave.

You know, we all understand that there are still going to be problems in Afghanistan. The Taliban are still going to be there. We don't want to have a recurrence of Al Qaeda safe havens, so I am pretty confident that the military leaders and our intelligence leaders had a chance to talk to the president and say, look, if we draw down the forces to zero, let's make sure we have some safety measures in place, that we're prepared to address some of the--again, counterterrorism issues or the general security issues there in Afghanistan. And while I don't know that for a fact, you know, my guess is this is part of the planning.

MR. IGNATIUS: Let me just press you a little bit more on this. You were the head of Special Operations Command. You know this world of counterterrorism as well as anyone. One of the questions that people have been raising in these last several days is whether it's going to be possible to have the robust counterterrorism presence without the small residual force.

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For example, you'll want to have drones that can see the ground, that can take direct action if terrorists begin to rebuild havens, but those drones would have to based pretty far away, probably as far away as the Persian Gulf. It's a long flight and not much time over target. Does that concern you from a tactical standpoint, if you will, as somebody who is a veteran of these counterterrorism fights?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, well, again, I think once we identify what the problem set looks like--so, to your point, David, you know, you talk about the drones. I mean, nowadays, of course, the drones' airtime is even significantly more than when I left the military a few years ago. So, you can set up an orbit of drones from, you know, just about any place within Southwest Asia, there, and still be able to have the coverage you need in Afghanistan.

So, once again, I'm confident that the military has thought through this in terms of where would we need to base these assets; you know, what is the flight time; how do you keep the drones in orbit; do you make sure that they are armed drones so, in the event you see a potential attack on our allies in the Afghan security forces, can we address that?

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Of course, we're also going to need, you know, intelligence assets on the ground. So, my expectation is we will maintain an intelligence network through, again, our Afghan's and other partners that might be there to ensure that we've got pretty good situational awareness of what's happening on the ground and the threat that's being presented.

MR. IGNATIUS: And it would be your judgment, as somebody who's a real specialist in this, a real expert, that we'll be able to satisfy the counterterrorism concerns that the country understandably has, will have going forward under the plan that the president has proposed?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, let me say at the outset this is not without risk, and the president understands that. You know, we learned the lesson of ISIS. And so, I think as we go into Afghanistan, the concern about, you know, will the Taliban mount a major operation to overthrow the Afghan Government? Will there be a rise in Al Qaeda in Afghanistan? All of the sorts of concerns that we think about whenever we're pulling out of a situation like this, I know that the military planners--and again, the folks at CIA and NSA and the intelligence community have looked at these issues and I know that they are thinking about ways to mitigate the risk.

Having said that, make no mistake about it, there will be risks. There are always risks out there. Our job in the military now will be to help mitigate those risks.

MR. IGNATIUS: That's direct and helpful. Let me ask you one more question about Afghanistan, and it's kind of a personal one, but if you were speaking to the families who've lost sons and daughters in this long war, our longest war, who asked you, Admiral McRaven, what were my sons and daughters fighting for; what was this war really about; how would you answer that question?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah. You know, the fact of the matter is, David, regardless of how the war ends--regardless of how the war ends--their sacrifice has not been diminished one bit. Their courage hasn't been diminished, their comradery, their love of their fellow soldiers, their patriotism has not been diminished one iota concerning how we're going to leave Afghanistan. So, I would tell the families, you know, your sons and daughters and fathers and brothers and mothers came there more to serve the man on their left and the woman on their right, their comrades, knowing they had a job to do and, you know, some of them gave all but all of them gave something. And let me tell you, that sacrifice will never, ever be diminished.

MR. IGNATIUS: So, thank you for that. And let's turn to the moment for which you're remembered and celebrated--we'll celebrate the 10th anniversary next month--and that's the raid on Abbottabad that killed Osama bin Laden.

I wanted to ask you what's your most vivid memories of that operation are ten years later. The passage of time dulls some memories and sharpens others. What's the thing that you think of first when you think back ten years ago?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, it's not actually about the night of the mission. I mean, I remember the night of the mission well. I'm incredibly proud of the Navy SEALs and the Army helicopter pilots and back enders, the intelligence community people. I'm incredibly proud of all of them, and I'm incredibly proud of the decision the president made with probably only a 50/50 chance that bin Laden was there. So, you know, I was just honored to be a small part of that.

But the memory I have actually isn't from that night; it's from months later when I went to New York City. I'm not sure I fully appreciated the impact of the mission on people that had to live through 9/11. And when I made a visit to New York City, I think it was, you know, later that year, maybe the November of that year, the New Yorkers just were--were incredibly gracious to me, really appreciative of the work that I had done and my guys had done. But I was also quick to point out, look, the mission to get bin Laden was not about the Navy SEALs, it wasn't about the helicopter pilots; it was about the hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, civilians, everybody that contributed to this fight, the fight in Iraq, the fight in Afghanistan, the fight around the world to get them.

You know, we were honored--we, the SEALs, were honored to be the tip of the spear on this particular mission, but make no mistake about it, the courage and the bravery of the other forces, the Army, Navy, Airforce, and Marine Corps was just as heroic and just as impressive as the endgame with the bin Laden raid.

MR. IGNATIUS: I'm sure you've considered the counterfactual: What if bin Laden had survived that night, had lived, had escaped somewhere else. Do you think his time would have been short or that we might still be dealing with a world where Osama bin Laden was in hiding somewhere as his number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri supposedly is to this day?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, good question. I think there's kind of two scenarios, there: One, if we had gone in and somehow, he had escaped, because we thought there might be some underground tunnels coming out of the compound; or, the other scenario is if we had gotten there and, in fact, he was not there. But in either case, what we found out, of course, after we got bin Laden and we got all the intelligence off the second deck, the second floor of the building, we realized he was still plotting and planning. I think most of us felt that he was just a figurehead at that point in time, and that getting him was important so that we could bring justice to the American people and to the people around the world who had been affected by this madman. But I'm not sure we really believed he was actively involved in operations. But the intelligence we pulled off showed that, you know, he continued to be actively involved.

So, had we missed him that night, you know, there's no telling, you know, what events could have occurred after that.

MR. IGNATIUS: Can you share with us the moment when you called then-President Obama and informed him of the results of your mission?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Well, late in the mission--I mean, there was a couple of times. You know, when we were about 15 or so minutes into the mission, I received from the ground force commander, "For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo," and Geronimo was the code word for bin Laden. And of course, that was passed to Director Leon Panetta, who was Director of the CIA, and back to the president there in the White House.

But candidly, I would offer, at that point in time, there was not a lot of whooping and hollering. We still had guys on the ground. I still had a mission to complete. So, I would offer that, you know, neither at the White House, nor at CIA Headquarters and certainly not in my little headquarters there in Jalalabad did we start celebrating. We still had to get these guys back.

Of course, as we were coming back across the border, by this time, I was in direct communications with the president, and we at that time had a pretty good idea that it was bin Laden.

MR. IGNATIUS: It's said that President Obama's gift to you, or at least one of them, after this mission was a tape measure. Is that true? And maybe you could just describe a little bit of the effort to establish that this really was Osama bin Laden, one issue being his unusual height.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah. Well, as I said, in the very--toward the tail end of the mission, the president is now on the video teleconference with me, much like we're having right here, and he says, "Well, Bill, do you know whether it's bin Laden or not?" I said, "Sir, I don't. I need to go personally ID the remains before I can tell the president of the United States that this is Osama bin Laden." And he said, "Okay, great." And my little headquarters was just a few minutes from the airfield. So, I drove over to the headquarters. The SEALs were just landing. They brought in the remains in a body bag and, without getting too graphic, you know, I got down, I unzipped the body bag. Obviously, he didn't look too good. He'd taken a couple rounds. The beard was a little bit shorter, but I was pretty certain it was bin Laden.

But nonetheless, I removed--physically removed the remains from the body bag. And I knew that bin Laden was about 6'4". Well, you know, I'm 6'2" and I thought, "Eh, you know, maybe I ought to check." And you know, I could kind of lie down next to him and--but I thought, you know, that would be maybe a little undignified for a three-star admiral. So, I saw some young SEAL standing nearby and I said, "Hey son, how tall are you?" And he said, "Sir, I'm 6'2"." I said, "Yeah, good, come here for a minute. I need you to lie down." And first, he looked at me, he was like, "What?" But he immediately picked up on what I was doing. He said, "Got it."

So, he laid down next to the remains and the remains were a couple inches longer. I didn't really think much of it. I went back to my headquarters and I got back on the video with the president, and the president says, "You know, well, what do you think?" And I said, "Well, sir, I mean, without DNA I can't be 100 percent sure, but you know, I'm pretty sure it's him." And I said, "And oh, by the way, you know, I had a young SEAL lie down next to him and the remains were a couple inches longer."

And there was a long pause on the other end of the video--and again, it had been a very serious night with serious consequences, but the president all of a sudden says to me, "Okay, Bill, let me get this straight. We had $65 million for a helicopter"--the one that crashed in the compound--"and you didn't have $10 for a tape measure?"

And of course, it was just--again, part of it was just the great timing to lower the pressure. Again, it was a serious night with serious consequences, but it was very helpful for me to all of a sudden kind of take a deep breath.

Well, a day or so later, I got back to Washington, D.C., I'm briefing the Hill, and my aide gets a call that the president wants to see me in the Oval Office. So, we head over to the Oval Office, the president meets me and my team. He's very gracious and says, "I got something for you," reaches behind the president's desk and pulls out a plaque, and on the plaque was a brass plaque that says, you know, "From the President of the United States to Vice Admiral Bill McRaven. If we have $65 million for a helicopter, we ought to have $10 for a tape measure," and on the plaque is Home Depot tape measure. And it is something I have a great pride--it's actually off to my back side here in my library.

MR. IGNATIUS: The SEALs who carried out that raid, Admiral McRaven, are obviously American heroes, but I wondered if the celebrity that the SEALs had after that moment of triumph was good for them, that maybe they got a little too famous for their own good. Do you think that's true and did you worry in the aftermath that discipline within the SEALs, the command structure might be jeopardized by how public their role had been in this raid?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, well, it was obviously a concern on all our parts. I don't think it unduly affected the discipline of the teams. But you know, now, by this time, I'm the Commander of U.S. Special Operations Command, and there were a number of SEALs writing books.

And at one point in time, I was having a commanders' conference, about 200 of my commanders from generals down to colonels and their senior enlisted. And one young officer raised his hand and said, you know, "What about all these SEALs writing books?"

Well, I had happened to go to our library and pulled out all the books that had been written since 9/11 on special operations and everybody was writing books. And I said, "Here's my point: I joined the military because I read a book about, you know, the heroics of commandoes during World War II and Vietnam. I watched the movie The Green Beret with John Wayne, which gave me some motivation to come into special operations." I said, "I am completely okay with books and movies. You know, hopefully as long as you portray the heroism and the sacrifice of the families, I think that's just fine. And oh, by the way, it's a little hypocritical of some people to say it's okay for the admirals and the secretaries and the presidents to write books, oh, but for God's sake, don't let the chief petty officers write books." No, no, that's not the way it's going to work, in my opinion.

So, as long as they went through the process of having the books reviewed. And every book I've done, to include "The Hero Code," has gone through a Department of Defense review, then I'm okay with it. And I don't think the celebrity--yes, has it created some problems? Sure, but I don't think it--it is certainly not systemic and it is a problem that, you know, we have to address all the time, not just after the bin Laden raid.

MR. IGNATIUS: Let's talk a little bit about where the country is now. You, last fall, endorsed then candidate Joe Biden for the 2020 presidential election. I'm going to ask you why you felt the need to do that. At the time, you wrote, "The world no longer looks up to America." And I'm wondering whether a few months into the Biden presidency you feel that's beginning to change.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, well, I absolutely feel it's beginning to change. But in that article, I made it clear, David, that I am a conservative. I mean, I'm a pro-life guy, raised in Texas. I've probably got more guns than any one person ought to have. I believe in the Second Amendment. I believe in a strong defense and a small government. But I also said in there, "Look, I also support the fact that Black Lives Matter. I'm the biggest believer in the First Amendment you're ever going to meet. I was a journalism major."

So, you know, I think you can be this kind of compassionate conservative, if you will. What I was concerned about was that I didn't see the noble qualities in the president. You know, every country I think needs, you know, the best leader we can find. We need a leader that has character, has integrity, that will step up when the times are tough and do the right thing. And I just didn't see that with President Trump.

I am seeing, you know, a return to presidential dignity with President Biden. I like what he's done in his first hundred days. It will not be easy. It is never easy. As I've said before, you know, I have the great pleasure and the great honor of working both for George Bush and Barack Obama and I didn't agree with either man on a lot of issues, but both of them were men that I trusted, that I thought were doing the right thing for the country. They were both men of great character and integrity, and I can follow people like that, if I feel like they have put the country's interest first and foremost. And I certainly see that President Biden is doing that certainly in the first, you know, months of his presidency.

MR. IGNATIUS: One thing that I think many Americans felt on January 6th, watching the events, the storming of the Capitol, was that the country really had been damaged by the events during and after the 2020 election campaign.

I'm wondering if you feel those divisions are beginning to heal and whether we're on the way to being one country again, or whether you're still concern that what we all saw on our television screens may be deeper in our body politic, and may need more attention than we sometimes think.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah. You know, what I'd offer is, you know, anything good is worth fighting for, and we are fighting for our democracy, and we will always be fighting for our democracy. The day we decide to give up on it is the day that we are on the downward slope, but I don't see that all.

You know, I've said it before: I'm the biggest fan of the Millennials and the Gen Z that you'll ever meet. This idea that this generation are some, you know, soft, entitled little snowflakes--well, I'm quick to point out that you've never seen them in a firefight in Afghanistan or going to school to try to make a better life for themselves and their families. And so, whenever I lose a little bit of hope, all I've got to do is look at this new generation. And they're not like my generation. In many ways, they are a lot better. They really care about their friends. They ask the hard questions. They want answers. They mobilize when they see things that they don't like.

So, as rough a time as this may be, I've got great faith and great optimism in these young men and women. So, are we going to have to fight for our democracy? You're damn right, we are. Is it worth it? Absolutely.

MR. IGNATIUS: Let me close with a question that I bet you're asked from time to time to time. You know a lot about leadership. You've been a leader in very stressful situations. As you just said, you've thought deeply about the country and where it's going. Would you ever consider running for public office?

ADM. MCRAVEN: Yeah, I don't see politics in my future. I actually have, you know, great respect for the men and women that step up to do this. Of course, I don’t agree with all of them. I have some differences of opinion on a whole lot of issues. But I tell you where I really saw it was when I came back to Texas and I had an opportunity to work with the state legislature.

And again, do I have differences with some of the leaders in Texas? Of course I do. But what I saw particularly was the representatives and the state senators working to solve the problems, and the problems are solved locally. I mean, we talk about democracy, we talk about infrastructure, we talk about a lot of the issues today, policing, this is solved locally. And so, where we have to really hope to find our heroes are in the principals in the school and the superintendents of the independent school districts and the representatives and the senators at the state level, and the mayors and the city council people, and the police chiefs. This is where I think the real work of America gets done, and the federal government has got to give them the latitude to do the job, give them the resources to do the job. And then we, as Americans, have to continue to work with our local representatives and our state and federal representatives, as well.

But let me tell you, so much of this happens at the grassroots and I was pleased to see, again, how many--I hate to keep using this word, but how many heroes there were at the local and state level that got our infrastructure built, that took care of our kids in school, to balance the budget. Like I said, I'm an optimist, and I think we're going to be just fine.

MR. IGNATIUS: So, Admiral Bill McRaven, nearly ten years after the raid on Abbottabad. Thanks for joining us. The book is The Hero Code. You've heard a good summary of the spirit that motivates it.

Admiral McRaven, thanks for joining Washington Post Live today.

ADM. MCRAVEN: Thank you, David.

MR. IGNATIUS: So, folks, stay tuned. We'll have a special program at 1:00 today on diversity in the workplace. And at 3:00, we'll have an Oscar spotlight on the documentary, "Collective."

So, have a good day, stay with us. Thanks for joining Washington Post Live.

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